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Origin of Doyletics: Transcription of Doyle Henderson Interview

Interviewed by Bobby Matherne December 1998

©2000 by 21st Century Education, Inc

This interview took place as Doyle drove his 32 foot Coachmen motor home from Phoenix to New Orleans. I have left out the questions I asked and allow the interview to take on a monologue aspect with Doyle just talking to no one in particular, which is what he does upon the slightest provocation anyway. I used a SONY 8mm camcorder to make this recording, holding it in my lap as we drove along. Sometimes the names of people were indistinct above the road noise, so people that were only mentioned once likely didn't get their name included in this transcript. [My Notes are all in brackets like this one and Doyle's voice is placed in quotes, whereas my words are unquoted as they appear in this paragraph.]

"My dad worked for the newspaper -- he covered so many crimes that he ended up working for the District Attorney who created a Special Investigator position for him and hired him away from the paper. My dad would observe things -- so instead of being a reporter, he became a Dick Tracy type. For example, it was my dad who taught me that if you see an oil spot on the highway, there's a bump. If you see a steady stream of oil, there's a steep hill, because the truck engines work very hard and run fast going up a steep hill and more oil drips down from the engines. You'll also notice that the oil will only be on the uphill side of the hill. [Note: if one were blindfolded and transferred to a country where they drove on the left side of the road, they could discover the fact immediately, just by noticing the oil streaks on the nearest steep hill.]

"Other things I learned from him was magic, sleight of hand tricks, how they are done. You have to remember that in those days we had vaudeville. Vaudeville stars would come to town, and you'd see magicians, card tricks, all that stuff. My dad used to advertise in the back of Popular Science magazines using very small ads and sell magic tricks. We'd go to the Post Office every day to get P.O. box mail -- he'd open an envelope and there'd be a dollar bill in there. A buck was a lot of money in those days. He used to sell a pamphlet telling how magicians did their tricks, much like I sell PANACEA! today. So I learned some these things from him.

"I learned to speak well -- because my parents spoke properly, I spoke properly. My dad ran for mayor of San Bernadino. He was born and raised in Portland. One sister whom I liked very much -- her name was Vera. His father, George Henderson, came from Philadelphia -- wanted to participate in the Klondike Gold Rush. He went to Skagway -- climbed up that horrible mountain where everybody died. He did not make any money there -- came back to Portland and married my grandmother Ellen.

"Ellen was an elocutionist -- most people don't know that word. My grandpa married her and a lot of that came down to my dad. George was into photography, which was quite a thing in those days. Around 1900 he would go door-to-door to take pictures of children. He'd take aboutfour or five pictures, one of which he sold real cheap, which people would buy, but he'd make up all these enlargements of the other pictures, and when they'd say they only wanted the cheap 25cents picture, he'd go to tear up the enlargements of the kids, and they'd never let do that. So they'd go ahead and buy all of the pictures. He'd sell several dollars of enlargements on the threat of the action of tearing them up. I remember him telling me that he'd actually have to tear one up sometimes before he'd sell the others.

"Then he went into managing a Chevrolet agency -- made quite a bit of money -- had a house on the side of a hill in Portland. That was George Phillip Henderson -- gold prospector, photographer, and Chevrolet manager. He said to me, "Let me give you some advice -- never buy a Chevrolet." I had bought one, but I said, 'I know what you mean, because I broke axles and all the rest.' He drove an air-cooled Franklin -- jump seats, heat vents in the floor -- he drove us up to Mt. Hood, four of us. The Franklin was a well-designed machine. George made a lot of money, with his three-story house on the side of the mountain. Ellen, his wife, had ulcers on the side of her legs, probably due to her diabetes. Anyway, he put an elevator in the house for her. They had a refrigerator with a big freezer and all. They were rich, well-educated people.

"My dad went to college in Portland -- don't remember the name, but I had a picture from a yearbook. My mother threw it out. When my brother was killed, she threw out almost all the photographs of my brother and me. She was very remorse.

"My parents met in an interesting way. My father ended up in eastern Oregon, near the Blue Mountains, where he worked for a newspaper office. He typed, learned it in the war, and at age twenty was typing the stories that came over the wire, which in those days was a telephone line at midnight. A man sat down at the telephone in Portland and talked into the headset, and via a conference call, would talk to all the newspapers in Oregon. My mom worked in the telephone office in Baker. She had come from Missouri to stay with her uncle. She was 22 at the time, a couple of years older than my dad. She had the job of setting up the conference call on the night shift every night. He began flirting with her while waiting for her to finish setting up all the conference callers. Then he'd type the news for the next morning and flirt with her again.

"They met and decided to move to California. He worked for the Santa Ana Register. I was born in Santa Ana. My brother was born there also, then several years later I was born there just before we moved. He got a job at the Redlands Daily Facts. He was editor of the Facts. Daily Facts. From there he got a job offer in San Bernardino at the Sun, so joined the Sun as a court reporter, and from there is where he became a criminal investigator as a result of his solving so many crimes.

"What I remember more than anything, I used to go with him out to the far parts of San Bernardino County, the biggest county in the world. Once a German spy was captured. He volunteered to go into the cell with the spy and managed to get the spy to confess, thinking my dad was also a spy.

"I've been in San Quentin three time, Folsom -- which is for two-time losers -- once. My dad would arrange for our summer vacations to visit his parents George and Ellen by transporting felons to San Quentin. He'd get ten cents a mile for transporting these guy in foot chains and handcuffs. Paid vacations. Well here I was with Mother and my brother in the back seat while the prisoner rode in the front seat while my dad drove the car. As I think of it now -- my dad was fool -- trusting these guys, convicted felons -- he'd say to them, "If you promise to be good, I'll take off the chains and cuffs and you can eat in the restaurant with us." We never had a problem with them. When he'd go into San Quentin with the prisoner, I'd go right insidewith them.

"One year we went on our trip and Mt. Lassen was erupting, and on the radio we heard that Wiley Post and Will Rogers had crashed in Alaska. My dad was very upset that Will Rogers had died.

Tell me about how Betty worked after you retired.

"Betty was so well thought of at Thomas Ramo Woolridge [TRW] Aerospace that her boss kept her on the payroll even while we went traveling across the country by motor home for two years. We finally moved to Fawnskin when I bought the house in 1985, the cabin. I worked on it for a year -- she came up on weekends, and finally she quit her job. When we toured the US for two years, she had asked for a leave of absence without telling them she'd be so long. She really hated to quit, but in the long run she was really glad she did, otherwise she'd have been working until she died. So, to sum it up: she worked for about five years after I retired, but two of those years we toured the country, and after that we moved to Fawnskin.

"In 1983 Betty and I went to Alaska. Didn't get back till Christmas. Betty was very popular at work -- you know how every work place has somebody that just makes it go -- Betty was one of those persons at TRW. She worked in nuclear hardening. The electromagnetic pulse [EMP] from a nuclear missile could destroy electronics made of transistors, so they had to go back to vacuum tubes. This group of about fifty engineers were concerned with protecting satellites from EMP. Betty office was the center of everything -- she always had something good to eat, a bowl of candy on her table. She could take shorthand for four hours in the morning and transcribe all afternoon. All the young girls considered her as their mother.

"My dad had a gold mine -- he staked a claim to the other side of the mountain from the Calico Gold Mine. Anybody could do it. My mom's brothers and he dug a shaft into the side of this gold-producing mountain We went up there every Sunday. My dad and uncles blasted into the mountain, got some gold ore, but the yield was too small, and after a year they gave it up.

"Then he got into the termite business. A total ripoff, the termite business. There isn't a house in Southern California without termites in it. Honeycombed construction is just as strong as non-honeycombed construction. So termites don't do any damage. 'Oh, look at this board full of holes!' Still got strength. But oh, no, gotta have this big to-do -- gotta kill all the termites. But next time it rains the termites come back. There's thousands of kinds of termites. (None in the mountains by the way. Dogs have no fleas in the mountain.) He taught me when you see a speck of termite dust on the floor, it means the termites have filled up their channels and had to release some. Termite shit -- means you got termites.

"What I learned from my father is it's a big rip-off and you should pay the minimum amount for termite protection and don't worry about it. Don't worry about the house collapsing like in a Disney cartoon. In those days they used to use cyanide gas to kill termites. Crawl under the house and pump the gas into the timbers.

"What else I learned. He never swore. Smoked a cigarette or two once a year or so. Smoked a pipe. I sat on his lap as he read the paper. Asked if I could smoke his pipe -- he said 'sure.' I smoked it -- it was awful -- taught me a lot. He kept Four Roses whiskey in the icebox, but because it was here all the time, I never paid any attention to it.,

"He taught us to be resourceful. He would take the car at his own expense and drive us up to Crestline this time of year [December] and pick mistletoe. We'd bag it up and go door-to-door to sell mistletoe and we'd keep the money. He'd never say what about my gas money. He'd keep it simple. My mother would bake fudge -- she'd pay for all the sugar and chocolate. Then we'd go door-to-door to sell the fudge at 25 cents a piece. We only got 25 cents a week for allowance. So I sold magazine door-to-door and I sold newspapers. On days it rained, he'd take the Chrysler out of the garage and drive me around. When I was twelve I went to work in a nursery.

"He taught me a lot. He failed to teach me to bowl -- I was left-handed, and later I got a ball drilled to fit my lefthand. He never played catch with me. He took me to Laguna Beach, to Tijuana, all over -- he loved to get in the car and go. He put almost 40,000 miles a year on a car and wore one out in just a couple of years.

"When I went to college, my dad never helped. I said to him, 'Dad, I'm gonna go to college, gonna go to Berkeley, cheapest place."'I worked all summer, paid for my own car, fixed my own car. I said to him, 'Would you help me out like my friends folks are?' He told me, 'Son, I encourage you to go, I want you to go, but it's up to you. If you want to stay here, you gonna have to pay room and board. It's up to you now to decide what you're going to do. But I'm not going to give you one dime.' And he did not give me one dime. If my car's radiator leaked, I plugged the hole with chewing gum. I did it entirely on my own. Now my point is -- that's what he taught me.

"So what did I do with my own kids? Did I set aside money for them to go to college? No way. I told my kids, 'I'm gonna take care of you until you're 18, then you're on your own. Vickie went out in the world and made some very bad decisions. [Note: Vickie is his step-daughter, Betty's child.]She paid $1800 for a motorcycle and gave it to her boyfriend who drove it off to Alaska. Guess who paid off the 1800 note? Dad. Each one went to college on their own. What do you think they think of Dad? Are they mad at me? They are so proud they are responsible. But boy did they learn something. My dad taught me that and I passed it on to my children. Now Vickie's talking about paying for all of Sarah's college. [Vickie's daughter] She took all of Betty jewelry and sold it after Betty died. When Betty got older I realized that she'd lost her natural beauty and began buying her jewelry. So when she's sitting in a restaurant and there's this young gal sitting over these all pretty, Betty would be sitting over here with her lovely diamonds and gold. So on Mother's Day, Christmas, birthdays, and anniversaries, I bought Betty jewelry. Before she died she said she wanted Vickie to have the jewelry. I think Vickie may use the money to send Sarah to college later."

[Bobby Note: This is the Second Tape of an interview we had as Doyle drove his 32 foot Coachmen motor home from Phoenix to New Orleans. I have left out the questions I asked and allow the interview to take on a monologue aspect with Doyle just talking to no one in particular, which is what he does upon the slightest provocation anyway. I used a SONY 8mm camcorder to make this recording, holding it in my lap as we drove along. Sometimes the names of people were indistinct above the road noise, so people that were only mentioned once likely didn't get their name included in this transcript. My Notes are all in brackets like this one and Doyle voice is placed in quotes, whereas my words are unquoted as they appear in this paragraph.]

At this point in the trip we are in New Mexico. At one point we pass Deming NM just as Doyle is talking about Holiday Inns and quality.

"Very few people know this. The first MacDonald's in the world was at 14th and E St. in San Bernardino. Johnny Wollard, my friend, was a cook there. It was a drive-in. I used to drive my 1927 Chevrolet into that MacDonald's. I was going to high school, so it was in 1939 or 1940 when I had my car. There is a plaque on a pillar of concrete at 14th and E St. in San Bernardino right now that states this was the world's first MacDonald's hamburger shop. Ray Kroc stole all that and claimed that the first one was over in Alhambra or something. [No wonder the Hamburglar figures prominently in the MacDonald's characters.] Which it was not. The first MacDonald's was on E Street and I used to go there. I'd drive by there and the girls would come out. I could tell you many stories. I ordered the very chocolate cherry coke. I ordered the first chili dog at MacDonald's. Of course they don't sell that anymore, but I'm just telling you what happened. So much for MacDonald's.

"When I was in New Delhi, India in October 1968 (I'd gone to Bangkok earlier.), we were going to drive down to Agra to the Taj Mahal. I met the owner, starter, initiator of the Holiday Inn chain. He was very famous and he was alone, not with anyone else. We had to sit at the airport bar because the airplanes were all screwed up. Betty and I talked to him. I knew his name back then, but I've forgotten just now. We had a wonderful talk and I started by asking him, 'What are you doing here?'

"'I'm gonna set up a Holiday Inn here.' He was setting them up all around the world. The point of the whole thing, to make it short, is I asked him the question, 'How did you get the idea, how did you get started with Holiday Inn?'

"It was after World War II -- motor courts they were called -- everywhere you went to was different. This one didn't have clean linens, that one didn't have phones. The food was lousy -- you couldn't depend on any standard. Every place was different -- a shock. So you tried to find out where's the motor court."

Interesting you should talking about quality as we're passing through Deming right now. [Peter Deming was the founder of the idea of Quality Teams.]

"So he said, 'I found a need and I satisfied it. The need was for standardization, dependability, quality.' When you went to Holiday Inn you knew the bed was going to be the same, the bathroom, you'd have a closet to hang your stuff, an ice machine, and you knew exactly what it was going to be like. The restaurant would be good. Of course there was no television back then, but you could count on what you'd find there. Everything would be quality. You could go to any Holiday Inn and they'd be the same. That was a new idea in 1946.

"He told me he saw a need and he filled it. Of course timing -- timing had to be perfect. Amazingly you can go to a Holiday Inn anywhere in the US, the world, and they'll be the same. I'd drive the United States in the Forties and the motor courts were all different. We could stay for 5 or 6 dollars a night, and I'd argue with the man if it cost more and go to another place if he wouldn't come down on his price.

"I met another man, his name was Gil Rob Wilson, publisher of Flying Magazine, wonderful man. He dealt with private airports -- tried to keep them alive. They were being overrun by housing developments. In the L.A. area in a period of ten years they lost 28 airports. I remember trying to save Compton Airport from the developers. Gil used to write a poem about flying the front of every issue of Flying Magazine.When we tried to save the Compton Airport from all the forces, he came from the East to help us. At his own expense, to help us save the airport -- we eventually converted it into the L. A. County Airport.

"Now the interesting thing, which I won't go into detail, is when they built Compton Airport, it was privately owned. When the owner died, his wife couldn't pay the taxes. And so the only thing she could do to pay taxes was to sell to the developers. The only thing we could do was to get the county to take it over. So the county bought her out, we kept our airport, she paid her taxes -- it was all a big success.

"The point of the story is another piece of advice from a frank, brilliant man. I knew him well enough to call him Gil. I said, 'Gil, how did you get into this, the publishing business and all?'

"He said, 'If you want to be successful, associate yourself with a worthwhile cause, lose yourself in the cause, you will get the credit for it.' He was saying to me, don't try to become famous on your own like a singer, a dancer, etc, but the way to be successful is to promote a worthy cause and you will gain success as the cause gains success. That's what he taught me. And I've tried to do that. I don't want to a guru, a famous speaker, etc -- but I would like to see PANACEA! or doyletics gain as a cause. Like Gil Wilson told me, if it's successful, you will be successful."

What did you go to Berkeley to study?

"Engineering. Engineering. In those days, that's all there was. None of the specialities of today. I went to UCLA later for other subjects that came along, like solid state electronics."

Outside of engineering, what were your favorite subjects?

"Nothing. Engineering, that was it. Oh, I like astronomy -- I got A's in astronomy. I took a lot of mathematics. Algebra, advanced algebra, trigonometry, solid geometry, differential calculus -- took all these at Berkeley. One semester of imaginary numbers. Then two semesters of differential equations. We were not required to take differential equations, but even though I studied years of calculus, I was always afraid I'd fail. The mixture problems of advanced algebra are more difficult than anything else -- where you had 80 cents a pound for jelly beans and $1.50 a pound for something else -- I had so much trouble with that concept -- the conceptualization. What I learned, what I'd like to say to every engineering student is this: the concepts of advanced algebra are more difficult than anything else. In the rest of mathematics, it's easier -- you build on this, you use that, etc. But the concepts of differential calculus, differential equations, blew me away -- when I found that some equations could never be solved. You work on it for years and never find a solution, or you just might luck onto it right away.

"One of the most difficult things for me was thermal or heat. Might have been the professor. Some other physics and mathematics professors were bad. Then I took astronomy as an elective -- I got an A+ in it. How you measure the speed of light -- how you figure out the sun is 93 million miles away. I just sucked that stuff up. And since then, I took solid state physics to under transistors and all that."

What was your first job out of college?

"I went to Berkeley Scientific Instruments. I got a job there in the Engineering Laboratory. Worked on such things as time interval meters, back in 1949, 1950. I worked there until 1951.I took a vacation to Southern California. Shows you how chance or serendipity worked in my life. We were at Huntington Beach and my first wife wanted to go to the Coliseum for the 4th of July Celebration. No freeways in those days. Took Pacific Coast Highway up through Long Beach, planning to head up Figuroa Street, to the Coliseum. I couldn't spell Figuroa, so we missed the street. Turned north up Crenshaw. When we got to Hawthorne, there was a jet airplane gonna take off. Hey, man, I haven't seen too many jet airplanes in 1951. So we were gonna stop. They had the road blocked off because they were waiting for this airplane to take off, and Shirley looked up and saw a billboard, "Engineers Wanted -- Secret Missile Program".

"So she say, 'Why don't you come back tomorrow and apply for a job?' So okay, we went to the 4th of July celebration, went back to Huntington Beach, and swam in the ocean. The next day or day after we drove back up to Northrup Corporation at the Hawthorne Airport on Crenshaw. I got four job offers - I turned them all down. We went back to Berkeley and the Chief Engineer kept calling me, kept raising the price, offered to ship my furniture, and finally I couldn't say no anymore.

They made airplanes - they didn't know test equipment. And here I was Chief Test Engineer working with digital equipment, time interval meters, all this stuff. And I had a lot of personality problems, but I was happy at Berkeley Scientific. Anyhow I flew off in a DC-3. Shirley got the movers in and drove the car down to L.A.

"I started college before World War II. Went back to college afterward. Three years active duty, then I got out the Army and went back, on the G. I. Bill. I met my first wife Shirley in the Army on a bus. Chewing gum was very hard to come by then. Rode to camp with her. She gave me her address, but wouldn't give me her phone number. I went and met her at the USO. Soldiers would go to the USO clubs, girls would dance with them, give them coffee and donuts.

So I went and met her at the USO.

"Finally I had a date with her. We got married at last in Fresno. Big church wedding, tuxedos and all. John Williamson was my best man, from Omaha, Nebraska. I'm trying to find him - can't find him anywhere. We were in the army, in Fresno together. We got out of the service together and went back to Fresno.

"Our first child was born while we were at Berkeley. I took three jobs, radio parts supply, sold ice cream, but I went on the G. I. Bill and got $112 a month. The whole situation was that thousands of G. I.'s came back from the war and went to college. They all wanted to get married, have babies, and go to college. They brought housing units from thousands of miles away for all the new students at Berkeley. They bought some from Oregon that were in a flood, covered with mud. They tore them down, hauled them to the swamp land near the Bay and called it Veterans Village. One, two bedroom apartments. In the one bedroom style, the bathroom was in the same room behind a partition and an electric hot plate was the appliance for the kitchen area. It cost $28 a month. That was in Richmond near the shipyard where they built the ship in three days.

"From there we moved to another housing area, a better place, about $30 a month. I remember being so poor that we couldn't make the rent payment one month because I lost a $20 bill. 'We'll let you get by this month," the landlord said, 'but you'll have to pay it next month.' It was rough, but we made it. My dad never sent me money. I got a bonus from the Army - it came along later, about $600.

"But those were terrible years - my daughters were born in 1948, 1949, about 17 months apart. And it was not my intention. It was my wife's romantic idea - she came home and announced that she was going to have a baby. It was not my idea. I made the mistake a few years ago of telling my first born child the truth, and it was a big mistake to do so - it was her mother's doing, and the last thing I would have done was have a baby at that time.

"Her mother now writes romantic novels. Her idea of a perfect weekend is to go to moives on Friday night. Go to movies in L. A. on Saturday morning, then Saturday afternoon, and another Saturday night. Then Sunday afternoon and Sunday night. So we would see 2, 4, 6, 8, 9 o 10 movies in a weekend. Dream -- she lived in this fantasy world-- we saw a lot of movies. There were theaters everywhere at the time. The LA Times would have two full pages of movie ads - covering all the cities in the L.A. area and we'd have seen all the movies playing from Long Beach to the San Fernando Valley. So we'd drive maybe forty-six miles out of San Fernando to see one picture we hadn't seen. That was often because we'd seen everything else there was to see, so we have to drive somewhere else to see one movie that we hadn't seen. I saw a helluva lot of movies in those days. Ha ha ha.

"I got married -- I really shouldn't say this -- but I'll say this to you and you can paraphrase it -- to play house. I got married really to have sex and play house. I thought I was in love -- I thought that if I did the right things, things would work out alright, but they didn't. I thought I could fix things - if I really wanted to fix it, I could - the problem. Finally it got to the point where I thought I'd really better fix it or break up. It didn't work. I failed. It was a great lesson for me - to dicover that I did not have the power to fix it. That one time. That's a long story."

"What was your first job at Northrup? You worked on the Snark?"

"Yes, I worked on the Snark. Basically my job was to design test equipment for the Snark., the first strategic, intercontinental, but not ballistic, missile. It was an airplane - noboby on board - it did not go down a runway. It was launched from a pad with 160,000 pound rockets, booster rockets. You didn't want to go down a runway, subject to winds, etc. In six seconds it was doing 300 mph."

"So you had better control over a remote control plane if it were going fast right away?"

"Yes, I don't know whose idea it was. It's an interesting question. I remember I asked, and they told me, but it was so much to hear what it was, that I don't remember the why parts. And I got more interested in the flying and inertial guidance. Here's how it works.

"I put you in a room, in a box big enough for you to sit in, hang a pendulum from the ceiling with a lead weight on it, give you a clock and a protractor, and pick you up and move you and set you down again. If you know what's going on, you can tell me where you were - because the pendulum moves back when we start moving you (We don't tilt the box.). Wow! You don't have to see - all you have to do is measure acceleration and deceleration - you know when you stop, you know from the angle the acceleration and the speed you were going. That's an oversimplification, but that's the basis of inertial navigation.

"Now as you go around the earth you have to correct. So we needed to look at the stars once in a while to correct. We had an airborne computer. The stars were pre-selected for a course. If you knew you were going that way, you pre-selected stars - two of them that you acquired at first, then a third as you got over there - you'd let go of these two and acquire a new one."

"How do you identify a star?"

"Based on brightness and location. We looked at the sky and selected stars of the proper location and magnitude. We're gonna hook onto that one, and that one, and after we go another 500 miles, we're gonna hook onto that one. And so forth - that happened over 6,000 miles, so I don't know how many stars, but it was a bunch of them.

"Now in order to stabilize the platform, we needed gyroscopes. The ones we used had to have no drift or drag. Unheard of in the technology of the time. There were a number of the we worked on. Of course we used accelerometers. In those days - they were U-tubes with an electrolyte and two electrodes on either side of the U-tube. We energized 400 cycles of AC so that, believe it or not, the slightest tilting of the U-tube or manometer would detect any angular change. And I mean down to arc seconds. The man who did the U-tubes worked for me and he held patents on the manometers. And they had to be accurate. An arc second is the height of a ten inch wave on the shore of Catalina Island as seen from Los Angeles twenty-four miles away. It's defined as the angle that the hour hand moves through in the course of one second. [Note: an arc second is 1/900 of the distance between successive minute marks on a clock face.] We were the first people to use clean rooms. It was unbelievable to me. I said 'How can you see stars in the daylight?' He said, 'Well - you take a long tube and look through the tube, and you can see stars in daylight.'"

"How big a tube?"

"A couple of feet long. You can see stars."

[break in interview]

"Wanna do a little interview now?"

"I'd just as soon wait a little bit. D'ya mind?"

"The thing is . . . Panacea . . ."

"A momentary doyle came up. Notice, I admit it."

"What's that?"

"I had a bad feeling! A dislike for a moment, then I realized I was having a doyle, now I don't have it, so go on."

"So you told me before about your episode in joining the army. What were some of the other things as a kid you had problems with?"

"My adverse reactions as a boy growing up in grammar school (under sixth grade) was discovering that I talked too much. I was very difficult. I was liked - people liked me, but in those days people called what I had an inferiority complex. Today we say we have low self-esteem. As we get older people just change the names they call things. People used to die of consumption, now we it was probably tuberculosis or pneumonia. And Alzheimer's - been going on for years and we just didn't know it.

"Anyway - I had low self-esteem - and as years went by I got the idea it wasn't just a complex - I was really inferior. My parents did not make me realize that because I was four years younger than my brother that I was not match for him. I didn't get the concept that that was why I couldn't run as fast as him, be as smart as him - I didn't get that.

"Some people say it should have ben obvious to me, but it was not obvious. I always fell short in everything that was asked of me and I don't know if that's what gave me the complex or it it was a doyle or what. But anyway, I had a lot of problems.

"Just to bring it up to the point of induction into the Army - before I went into the Army, my brother went into the Air Force. He came out a bomber pilot, a B-17 pilot. Alden Taylor, my close friend, became a pilot, flew B-27's, Republic aircraft, etc. Jack became an ensign in the Navy, Johnny became an ensign and then a Lieutenant Commander in the Navy. All my friends did well and I couldn't get into the Air Force or the Navy.

"I went down to the Marine Corps and tried to get in and couldn't - guess why - I passed all my tests - this probably saved my life - but I was color blind, of all things! I had no idea I was color blind. I see the red and the greens okay, but I took this test, designed by this Japanese General Ishuhara with those dots and circles. I'd see a 6 and everybody else'd see a 9. I flunked the test. The Marine Corps said 'You're color blind, so you can't get in.' Notice - years later I knew that a lot of baloney when I got my pilot's license and flew airplanes. I'm legal to take passengers up. I passed one test where the FAA examiner went up, and I could spot stuff that he couldn't spot. Ironically I couldn't be anything but a buck private in the Army. Even though I'd had had Reserve Officers Training Corps training in Berkeley at college.

"I wasn't the stereotype of the fearful, frightened kid that wouldn't do anything. I defied the stereotype because I always did what my brother did. I climbed the tree, but not with abandonment like some kids did. This of course reinforced the idea that I'm inferior. Then when I went in the service, I couldn't pass the physical and I was going to be a 4-F and disgrace my father.

"I could climb the tree, but I was scared and frightened, I was full of physical body states, trembling, sweaty palms, pounding heart, oh my! So, I kind of ran counter to the stereotype. I climbed the trees in places where it was very dangerous. I climbed mountains, climbing up the side of cliffs and stuff. Scared to death - not with abandonment like a couple of the other boys did.

"Why was I so afraid and they seemed so unafraid? They loved it - I did it reluctantly. So obviously I never became a great basketball player - I was a klutz, uncoordinated. I was amazed when I became a man to learn that I was not uncoordinated. Flying an airplane requires coordination - you really have to coordinate everything. Anyway I found I was not a klutz, not uncoordinated. I found I could drive a car. I thought I was pretty damn sharp - but with a death grip on the wheel and a furrow in my brow. And with a high pulse. I bought a pulse meter before most scientists had them. One hundred and twenty pulses per minute. I was the guy who ran around the track in a relay race and dropped the baton. I was very slow. When it came time to chin myself on the bars in high school - I couldn't chin myself but once. My dad had failed to teach me to exercise; I had no motivation for lifting weights. So I developed a true inferiority complex. I couldn't bowl - I was left-handed - I needed a left-handed bowling ball, but I didn't know it. I went bowling with the guys and I was lousy.

"So everything I tried to do in sports - in fact - I can't think of anything except riding a bicycle I was good at. They sent me out in Left Field or Center to catch flies - I was no good at playing Catcher or First Base - my father never played catch with me, especially under the age of five. And I . . . Here comes the ball to me - and I'd go to catch it - I don't have my own glove, I needed a right-hand mitt anyway - I fell back, hurt myself, and could hardly throw the ball back in. So I was a flop there, too. There was no motivation for me to say I'm gonna learn to do this. I gave up on sports.

"So I turned to scientific things. I had a friend Howard - he was an older child, he was an only child - so Howard and I messed around with all kinds of technical stuff. We got into chemistry and blew up the house on the 3rd of July. My dad said, 'You better get yourself another hobby.' So I got into electronics and radio. I was very proficient at learning algebra and engineering. In amateur radio you didn't go down and buy a unit. You bought transformers, built things ourselves - receivers, took tuning capacitors apart and spaced them with glass, and made big capacitors to handle high voltages. Unbelievable thing we did then that are out of the question now.

"I put together a carbon arc searchlight - I fried myself with it. Everyone said, 'There's that crazy Henderson kid.' I took huge loud speakers out of radios, put them in a big plywood panels that I found in junk yards, and made a huge public address system for the basketball court.

"I was the first person to invent an electronic digital counter. I took the counter as a timed interval counter to El Mirage Dry Lake where they had mechanically clutched clocks. '104.6389 mph' they'd say - the .6389 was a bunch of baloney, you know. They were lucky if it was accurate to a half a mile per hour.

"I was the first person to take an electronics clock to Bonneville. It worked off the six volt car batteries. Notice my motivation - the things that made me go - but what was missing was the natural tendency to be hitting a baseball, sports, and stuff like that. I went out for football in high school - couldn't be a quarterback, but I thought maybe a lineman or center. They'd give me the ball - and I'd drop it. Then this guy's knee came up and hit me in the jaw - broke my jaw. I learned a lot though. The dentist wired my teeth together. I had to eat everything through a straw. I carried around a pair of diagonal wire cutters in case I got sick and vomited to keep from choking to death. I could clip the wires right away.

"But notice the pattern. As afraid as I was, I went out for football. But in high school, people began to call me the brain, but I never felt like a brain. I always thought the other kids were really smart and I wasn't. So everybody said Henderson's a brain. I did all these things: built a radio transmitter and put it on my bicycle. Before I had a car, and I had a car at age 14, I'd ride up and down the sidewalk - you could listen through open doors to everybody listening to Fred Allen, Jack Benny, George Burns, Gracie Allen, or whatever. I would go by and interfere with everybody's radio program just to see if I could do it. I'd go by, not stay there to get this guy - and always with a sense of guilt that shouldn't be doing it.

"I got my amateur radio license, W6RFG - the RFG could be Radio's Finest Guy or Real Fine Gentleman. I was the youngest ham in the world. You had to build your own stuff - I had to even build my own receiver. Now you can buy a Hallicrafters radio for $29.95. A lot of older men would help me. Howard and II were just kids. We weren't just messing around, either, we got our own license. Within a year I got a Class A license which allowed me on all bands. Before that I had to use Morse Code or CW (continuous wave).

"The reason I'm talking about that is - my brother was almost four years older, but I had a Ham Shack out back, almost 8X8 foot shed made out of galvanized iron from the back of billboards. We had a flood down in the canyon - my dad rented a truck to collect it and helped me load them up. We put 4X4 inch posts in the ground. I had a shielded radio shack. I climbed [Tape 2: -1:37:28]

March 12, 1999: Tape Transcript of Doyle Henderson Interview

Once a season, the power company would come out. Walk across a street and tell my mom to tell the kid not to do that - it's illegal and it's dangerous. I had a 185 foot wire run from the shack in my backyard clear across the street to the power pole. It was some 40 feet high - that was my antenna. Then I'd climb back up and put the thing back up again. It came out two, three times, took it down, complained, and told me never to do it again. This is a road on output a backup again. So I had long antenna, and even though I had a weak transmitter, I could talk to people all the world. I'd talk to people in Hawaii and Alaska, too. Of course, you had to realize that there was no television - radios were all we had. A radio operator can own a radio station. I didn't need the recognition. That wasn't my motivation at all.

But one of the big emotional elements was my brother who always was superior to me in everything. He brought his friends around - they were three to four years older than I - he brought them in the backyard to see my radio shack. That was the most emotional thing I've ever experienced - never in my entire life, except winning spelling bees. I used to win spelling bees oh time, or at least I was always the last two or three. I never studied. I never had a dictionary. It came to me from being around my dad and learning diction.

I really enjoyed the praise from Mother, but my dad would never come around and spend ten minutes by the radio shack. My mom would say, "Go back there and see what he's doing. He's talking through a mike." But he never came back there. So I never got any praise from my parents.

But I got it in other ways. Like when my brother began bringing his friends around, his very best friends, to show them and to brag about his brother's radio station. And so that was a good thing for me.

In high school I got a job with the nursery out of the in the town. After school I would work out there for three hours and get the grand sum of 25 cents for that work. I learned the nursery business. To their surprise I would help them sell. There we're all these people in the nursery on Sunday. I tell them how many of these they needed, how much water they needed, and so forth. A very important part of my life was working at the nursery after school. It also exposed me to the wealthy people, movie stars - very wealthy people with beautiful cabins on the North Shore of Lake Arrowhead. People like Van Johnson, I got to know him. This was a very fancy nursery at the foot of the mountains. The people used to come here and place all orders for hundreds of dollars of plants. They'd say something like, "Okay, we'll take 50 these." I'd deliver them in an old '34 Ford, going up 25 miles. I dug holes and planted all these plants for these movie stars. Then Johnson said, "How about some palm trees?" "They won't grow up there," I told him. ???Well, a mop their busy big enough holes and there are girls in bathing suits and Chris Crafts at the dock. So they come out in talk to me to find out what I'm doing. The point is it didn't get me an entry at all, but it was in another world I didn't know anything about.

??Well in their three of owner began to trust me and down in the Valley he let me talk to some of his best customers. One day I sold scanner 20 palm trees, these were very easily transported and planted. Palm trees - you just pick them up and plant them and they grow fine. Anyway, I sold a lot of palm trees. I became the expert on various palms. So I became very valuable to him. Well, the war came. I remember up one time - it was a Sunday morning - I was delivering plants, and I stopped at the Carnation Ice Cream Company. Everybody was talking about the Japanese having bombed Pearl Harbor. Dec. 7, 1941. I got back in the truck, and I said, "Oh-oh, that means war - that means my brother's going over." So I kept going to school. I graduated from high school. I went in as a buck private - I volunteered for induction. Damn near was a 4-F, but you know that story. [Insert story of induction here from seminar.]

[October 26, 1999: Transcribing directly without the Dragon.] You asked me about what happened before. Had a lousy opinion of myself. I took Latin. I'm not A student. Except in the astronomy I that had A's - the teacher said I'm giving unit A+ in the course. He said that the highest he needed to give me wasn't an A, but an A+. He said, "You did not miss a single problem on the final exam". I still have that postcard with the A+ on it. But he was a superb teacher. I could hardly wait to go to the class with him.

My memories are that we traveled a lot by car. Every Saturday and Sunday my parents would go someplace. Death Valley, Palm Springs, or go to the mountains. At the drop of a hat, my dad would get in the car and we'd take off. He put 40,000 miles on the car a year. Except for the heart of the Depression, he got a new car every year. Everybody thought he was crazy. He got a new car every year because he wore them out.

So my father, in a sense, I think, he may have done everything right for Paul, my older brother, but when I came along, my father didn't pay much attention to me.

"Did your mother ever get to meet Betty?"

Oh, yes.

"So you satisfied your mother's original desire for a daughter named Betty?"

My mother warned me against my first marriage. She took aside and told me, very kindly, she said, "Shirley seems cold, indifferent, not like us. Are you sure?" I told her, "You don't see her as I do. When we're together, man, she's a hot babe!" In fact, I asked her doctor about her sexual nature. He said, "Doyle, you got a hot one!" Well, I was wrong; it was a disaster; I was knowledgeable, but it did not work. Well anyway, she was one of the first woman's libbers and I didn't know it, before there were woman's libbers. I was born into a paternalistic family where whatever my dad said, went, you know. If he said, "We're moving to China," Mother started packing, you know, no discussion. Whatever he wanted, that's it. She washed and ironed by hand, seven white shirts a week.

My father did not, as I look back on it now, I didn't know it then, pay much attention to me. Yet his influence on me was amazing. I am a feeling-touchy man - sensitive, tolerant. I can see the other side of arguments. I will argue sometimes, defend myself, on anything, and then later, I'll say, "You know, I think he's right!" You notice I don't go away saying, "Aw, phooey, I'm not gonna listen to that." You know, stuck. No, I go away and really reconsider, and I have changed my mind, my intention, my whole philosophy, in that area and admit that I'm wrong. A person goes thinking, "Oh, I didn't convince him - he's stubborn and all," but actually he changed my mind. So, I, in the moment, defend myself, have second thoughts.

"I'll tell you what Del does. She changes her mind so fast that she'll change her mind and start using the information before I finish the sentence . . ."

"Open minded."

"Wait till this happens to you, because if you stay around her, and you will, for a couple of hours, she'll do this to you, and you won't know what's happening, and you'll think she's . . ."

"That's wonderful."

"It took me a long time to understand this process."

"You make your point so well, that Boom! she's got it. She just immediately says, 'Okay, and she lets go of her . . .'"

"No, she doesn't say, 'Okay' - she may be still arguing with me. She's changed her mind and she's already using the information, and she's going on to something else - and I'm not finished my explanation. And it's very frustrating.

"I'm gonna take a break."

<stopped tape for a few minutes>

"Alright we're up to speed."

Doyle: I dislike mediocrity. When I was growing up, I didn't try to become head of my company, have my own factory. Even now, with Scientific Specialists, I don't have business with Chairman of the Board, President, or anything like that. Just Chief Engineer. I can always to refer to some non-existent Comptroller in case somebody puts the hard bite on me to buy something, I say the Comptroller won't approve it. I don't need that title stuff. Even today, see, I don't want to be a Guru. I don't want to give speeches, etc. I get more excitement talking to Bobby Matherne about autism, for example, and realizing the effect that we can . . . that someday somebody teach the Japanese to say, "R", and he will not have to say "flied lice". Sitting right now realizing that's going to happen, that it doesn't die. So my motivation is to see that it doesn't die.

"Seems like one of the first things to do is make sure that pre-kindergarten kids are taught to say all the phonemes of the major languages of the world, so that when they become adults they will be able to learn to speak any language they choose and speak it as a nature because the difficult job of making these unusual sounds with their tongue and lips will have been stored as a doyle."

Maybe you won't have to have a Southern accent. You don't have to have an Italian accent. Everybody thinks, "Oh, it's in your genes, but we know better. I get such a kick out of that. See, I don't care about fame and fortune. Of course, I'd like to have a million bucks, of course. And if I sell, I will send you . . . if I sell out to Microsoft or Corel, some of that money is coming to Bobby, see. We have no deal for that, but that's what going to happen. And so, one day I may . . . also I'm wise enough to try to get some stock options, and you're young enough, see, to hang onto to some stock options, buy some at $80 a share and sell them at $250. I'll try to get . . . if that happens. The other thing that is I learned in engineering as a kid is access to information. I don't have to know all the tables of measures, how many kilograms in a pound, I have to know where the hell to find it. How to solve problems, how to look up stuff, how to get data, and the most important is how to state the general case. State the general case - you can interview a lot of people and won't find too many who can do that. How to state the general - I don't anybody who seems to talk about that. Clovis couldn't - I tried my best, "Clovis, put it in the general case." He didn't have the academic training in engineering, he didn't have any idea how to state the general case. I almost always in my writing state the general case. You have the capability, Bobby Matherne, to state the general case, and you have the capability to come up with fabulous stories. You've got it. And I admire that - I enjoy it.

"Now what I'm interested in is: you had this experience during your induction into the Army in which your heart is beating fast and the only way you passed was waiting until you were the last person to be examined and the Doctor made you run up and down the stairs and he passed you ..."

It was just a step. A little step. But notice what happened, the most important thing. I interrupt you to tell you this. I talked my way into the Army.

"Yeah, well, you got the doctor to understand that . . ."

Well, I talked my way into millions of things: in and out of bad situations. I talked myself into good situations. So I learned, talking, frequently, will get me in and out of trouble. And into trouble. And over the years later, I began to realize that I should shut up, and I shouldn't do that.

"So, what I'm interested in is what, basically track down from that understanding, what did that confirmed to you, because you saw all these guys that didn't have these heart rate problems?"

That something was wrong with me. And I was curious as to what it was. Talking to psychologists was totally unsatisfactory. I didn't go to therapy. I just talked to people who studied psychology. And they explained to me that the Freudian id and ego - eh, that's all a bunch of baloney.

"Let's get specific now: you went into the Army and you pretty much forgot about all this stuff."

I functioned fine; of course, I was frightened the whole time.

"Where was the next significant breakthrough for you? In other words, how did you stumble on the concept of Panacea! and what did you do with it from there?"

Okay, I was in test equipment, an engineer in the Testing Department at Berkeley Scientific.

"That was your first job after graduating from college?"

Yes, from Berkeley. The key thing was . . . when I explain Panacea! properly, contrary to the way I think now it should be done... Oh! The other thing I think . . . Back to the Drawing Board! That's a major part of Doyle. Many people learn everything and they hang on to it. And Doyle as an engineer learned, "This doesn't work, back to the drawing board and change it." Be open-minded to change, concepts, hypotheses, all that stuff, even theories if they're corroborated. Back to the drawing board. That's standard aerospace engineering.

"Ah! And 'back to the drawing board' of life is the early ages. Yes"

So, that's a very important thing. These other things and that account for my willingness to say, "That doesn't work, let's go back and change the circuit." Sometimes in engineering, it's too damn heavy, it doesn't fit, so re-design it. That's an important part of my life.

"That'll be a chapter heading, no doubt, 'Back to the Drawing Board.'"

Back to the drawing board. And, uh, Panacea! got where it is from that attitude, otherwise I'd have abandoned it a long time ago.

"Now, get down to specifics. What happened? Who, what, where, when?"

When you did the thing all wrong, on the video tape . . .

"So Bobby went back to the drawing board?"

But I went back to the drawing board, and said, how in the hell does he get results? He's doing it wrong and it's working. Back to the drawing board. And I realized you don't have to go through the reliving. Notice, I went back to the drawing board.

"Okay. Now who, what, when, where? Was the first breakthrough? I want to know because it wasn't there and all of a sudden, it is . . ."

It started because I was working in sensors and receptors. Most people don't look at sensors and receptors. My business is these gauges. In the back there is an ammeter, so somewhere there's got to a resistance measuring the current, and the meter is reading the voltage. Instrumentation, sensors, and receptors . . . today you saw with voltmeter measuring for the horn. That's my business. Designing equipment - I mentioned earlier how sophisticated some of this equipment was.

Okay, that was my life's work. Now, all the time, I'm having a life filled with fear, personality problems, and, uh, talking too much, saying things when I should be shutting up, and not knowing anything about political <pause> influence, power structures in companies. I ran into people who didn't do what was best for the job or what was best for the department. They did things that were best for them. And I didn't understand those people. I never heard of such people. I didn't know there were such things, you know. Criminals, robbers, and burglars I heard of, but in a business how can this guy spend his entire day stealing my stuff, going up and down the hallway, visiting people and talking, and incidentally mentioning what he is doing, and it's what I did ! And I'm blown away that this guy is stealing my work, taking my stuff . . . Well, anyway, so my life was in instrumentation, etc, but meanwhile Frank gets the promotion that I deserved. I'm qualified, and he's not even qualified. He gets it, and he uses my work to do that.

I'm looking back at my problems then. My wife and I split up. I had many girl friends. About 100 women between Shirley and Betty. I went out there to prove there wasn't anything wrong with me, you see. They did like, did fall in love with me. Anyhow, all the time I'm interested in why does my pulse scream when I get behind the wheel of a car. Why I'm almost unable to get up and give a speech. I couldn't give a speech without holding the podium to keep my hands steady. I could hardly get my voice out of my throat. And listen to this, "TEN--SHUT! PARADE REST!!" I have a loud voice if I want to make it, right?


And here I am I can't project my voice to the first row of the audience because of the tightness and the fear. And my heart is pounding and all this, and I would die almost rather than give the speech. So I looked at all this stuff... Why is it so easy for everybody else and so difficult for me? So I read some books. Some book I picked up - notice, it's not psychological stuff - senses of touch . . .

"Practical stuff."

And I read in there that we have a sense of touch, which in Doyle Henderson's view should be called a sense of feeling, not touch. A sense of touch is when you press on your body somewhere, you're actuality actuating sensors, pressure sensors. The sense of touch is, amazingly, only rate sensitive. When you run your finger over the back of your arm, you can only feel the hairs when you move your finger. It's rate sensitive. You don't move your finger, you don't feel anything. So the sense of touch is rate sensitive, whereas most people think the sense of touch is a pressure. Then you have proprioceptive-sensors that let your know your arm's out here. And the only other thing, and this is what blew me away, I read book after book and nothing about pain. I'm revealing this the first time to you that we have pleasure receptors that science does not know of, up until now. I've concluded that combinations of various sensors that we do have get stimulated and are pleasing, but I'm beginning to think that there are specific pleasure receptors that are not listed in the biological categories, such as: hot, cold; pressure; touch; limb positions (proprioceptive) and the inner ear.

"You're talking general now, get specific - what experiences led you . . ."

"I (Bobby) read this in the book, 'There are no pain receptors in the heart. There are no pain receptors in the brain.' "

I said, "How do you remember feelings?"

You make pictures in your head. You have some kind of a speaker inside your head. You know, you remember Frank Sinatra singing, your mother's voice. How do you remember feelings? The papers said there were no sense of touch receptors at all in the brain. Now actually I was in a conference room with Jenny McInnis and Clovis and I asked them, 'How do people remember feelings?' That's not how it started. You're doing work with real revelations and motivations, you really get into it. The way it dawned on me in a few minutes, we were having lunch. And I said, 'I know how people remember feelings. The brain recreates the body state.' And then the sense of touch organs can be working fine, but they may or may not detect that. Like a blood pressure change, you hardly detect a blood pressure change. There are many body states that you may not detect or you don't call them feelings or emotions. So I said you gotta call them body states. In that half hour that day it dawned on me that brain re-created from memory these body states and then you felt them, and because they were now in real-time, everybody got screwed up. They said, 'Oh, it's what you said that made me mad.' And all that went on and on.

"So how did Clovis and Jenny react?"

Very supportive. They weren't kidding. She was an excellent subject. Of course, you asked me - at that time I didn't realize - I knew that it was a big moment and I remembered clearly. I didn't realize, I didn't know that also explained good body states . . .

"Now what I wanted was a chronological development. No need to talk about what you found out later."

I had messed around with hypnosis before. I could hypnotize myself, something like that. And I'd read a few books. I read psychoanalytical books. I knew the conclusion - it was all jargon, and that all these books were written through one another psychoanalyst. It was all bullshit as far as I could see. You know this idea, that, eh, you know, that the brain had no sense or touch receptors, and no pain receptors - well, what is fear, what is anger, that followed immediately, see? There aren't any fear receptors, not any anger receptors, so it's got to be stimulation of pain, gotta be stimulated pain receptors.

"So Clovis and Jenny worked along with you? And what did you do next?"

We opened what we called a "Value Institute of Life" on 841 North Harbor in Anaheim. We went down and grabbed people off the streets.

[ Bobby Note: Here's additional detail from an earlier email from Doyle: "In 1970 or so, I opened our first office at 841 N. Harbor Blvd, in Anaheim... at the Value Institute.... and was conducting a series of successful tests at the Norwalk Metropolitan Hospital (incarcerated mental and drug abusers) under Dr. Quass, MD/Psychiatrist." ]

"You must have done something before you went to the point of opening up the clinic."

Oh, I worked with Jenn, with Betty, with myself, with Clovis, George, everybody we could get our hands on, we tried . . .

"So Betty was in on the origin of this, from the very beginning, you were married to Betty at the time?"

Yes, Betty was there.

"So what happened when you did your first -- how did you discover that . . ."

Well, we would be doing things, trying hypnotherapy. Clovis was a barber, who was also a hypnotist and he got associated with some hypnotherapist that was trying to cure alcoholism with hypnosis. I want to give Clovis a lot of credit. I do in my first book. He would go ahead, even though he had almost no education, he would go ahead and do things that were unbelievable. He went to the City of Hope, the children's ward where they had leukemia and everybody died in those days. And he went in there and worked with these kids without any kind of permission or contact or anything. Park his car in the lot, go in there, and try to do traces. Clovis was sure if somebody hurt you, somebody tried to suffocate you, he'd read Janov's work at some point along here. Clovis was convinced if somebody hurt you, that was the cause of this, and had no idea of the methodization of it. And he was totally, to this day, he was totally convinced that you were hypnotized when you were doing the tracing. And so are you a little bit. Anyway Clovis believed that it was hypnosis. I tried to tell him, "You're not hypnotizing me, Clovis, you're not!"

"What was the first success? How did that come about, the very first time you knew you had done some kind of a trace?"

It's in my first book. I wrote it all down many years ago. [Insert Reference to Page #'s here] It's in the back in the history. About the first guy I did. I may tell the story a little differently because I've jumped here and you want to know what was the first thing, so . . . in terms of trying just with hypnosis, and Betty was a very good hypnotic subject. Now, Betty was close to being an alcoholic. This may be something I really don't want to put in the book, but it's alright. That was part of the motivation, too. She was a very frightened person. Betty was frightened and she was drinking very heavy, very heavy. And I thought when we lived in Torrance she really needed help. So a lot of it was to help her and Clovis and I at the time had no idea that anything would come out of it. I didn't know anything about psychology, and we met Clovis, he was a barber, and he did my hair. And, uh, you know how you talk to barbers, so we became associated and friends. He came to the house and ate Betty's cooking. He had a girl friend - Clovis was in his 60's, about 65 I think when we first worked together. He and I were inseparable, till he got arrested.

"He was what, 25 years old than you?"

Oh, yeah. He looked like a psychologist. He just looked the part. He looked just like you'd expect him to look - he dressed in a nice smart suit, he was slender, and he was sharp, and I liked him. If he'd have had an education, he'd have been dangerous. <chuckle> I really liked him. And I give him lots of credit, but remember he did not . . . he still believed in hypnosis, he would want to do things wrong, that were against what I recommended him doing.

"Okay, what I want you to get from ..."

He went to Mexico, you see. . .

"Well, looking at a logical development, sequencing of actual things that happened, not theories, not general statements, not background on Clovis, except as it applies to who, what, when, and where. The kinds of things that your father would want to know as a newspaper reporter. What I want you to do now . . ."

And he had a drinking problem. . .

"I have you at the point where you explained that you had this idea while you were having lunch that the brain re-creates the body states. Now, from there, how did you start your investigation of whether this made sense? What were the specific things you did?"

We opened a five-room institute where we invited people to come . . .

"I don't understand. Why would you open a room if all you had was an idea? You must have done something before you did that."

Just prior to that, we were hypnotizing people, and Clovis thought that he knew how to cure, how to help alcoholics. We were hypnotizing people, and using post-hypnotic suggestions to help Betty with her alcoholism. And what about me and my theory, and what about you and your whatever?

"So, basically you opened the Institute because you were going to use the hypnosis stuff."

Yeah, plus, plus, I began to see, I got the idea that psychology was on the wrong path. They didn't realize that the brain was re-creating body states. And that's what emotions were. It was really very specific , we didn't know the word specificity, and there's specificity in doyles, and it was more than a realization, that why I mentioned, boy, that other moment when I realized how do you remember feelings! I used to say that you can't see a feeling. Can't see it! In other words, essentially you can't get the feeling except by seeing yourself having a feeling. A lot of thinking went down. And then I remember he had to try - Clovis was out running around trying to get us work. He needed money. I'm supporting the whole thing while I'm working at Northrup. The whole time. The whole thing. Furniture - all this stuff. And we began grabbing drug addicts coming out of the methadone clinic. We prepared proposals to Dr. Klaus and psychologists, psychiatrists at the hospital. And the only reason he'd even talk to us is that his recidivism rate was atrocious - 85% of everybody went in there came back. So he was desperate. And we were. And I can't figure out . . . Clovis went in there to talk to him, and I wrote a third proposal to him for a test, with random sampling, MMPI tests, physical examines. They'd be all certified hard-core. He gave us addicts - he gave us the first people - they had everything. And on this test, well, we were so successful that he let us stay on. And we made another proposal - anyway it was six months before this psychologist got us arrested. He got us arrested not for doing the work there, because we're doing it under an MD, which is quite legal.

"But at this point, you're using hypnosis only? Anything like a doyle trace? When you bring these people in, what's your strategy with them? What does he do, hypnotize them and give them post-hypnotic suggestions?"

No, absolutely not! We were using doyletics without a complete understanding of it. [Bobby Note: I recognized Doyle Henderson's basic work as a new science and gave it name doyletics in 1998.] But definitely doing it. Let me put it in a simple sense: We were doing things that worked. Not all the time, but that worked and trying all the time to explain and accommodate a theory that would match this corroboration. Otherwise the work developed as a result of prophesizing and empirical data.

"You're stating the general case. Remember you told me you liked to do that. I'm getting a lot of statements of the general case. Now what I want is: who, what, when, and where."

[Bobby Note: continuing from Tape 2. video camera ran out of tape, so there's a small discontinuity while I reloaded with a new tape. ]

I was very concerned about Betty's drinking. I was all screwed up. I had messed up on my job. I missed promotions. I talked too much. Didn't get along with certain key individuals. See, we were the big whiz kids at Palos Verdes and Northrup Space Flights. And then they transferred the whole department up to Palos Verdes. In 1968 I was so high on the totem pole that they sent me around the world and let me take my wife. The company did that. I was in Iran. I visited the Secretary of State, the DOD head, the Chief Engineer of Iran - he showed me how they used computerized education in their schools. I lived very high on the hog in 1968. Then they moved the whole department out to Anaheim. And I did not hit it off, neither did my boss. They did not receive us well. They had heard about the whiz kids - they were afraid of us - in other words, we went in there and instead of being welcomed with open arms. What we did, we did not do well. Every time I tried to do a proposal, to get cooperation from the various groups, they would resist us. They would argue over the budget, they would be late with their inputs, the inputs would not be right. They were screwing us, they were silently conspiring, without any communication, not even an eye-blink, but it was a conspiracy to see that the whiz kids would fail. They made us do things their way. I'm not trying to defend myself - I know this kind of thing happens all the time - I screwed up. If I'd have been sharp, I'd have made friends and played golf with the right guys, pick up some lunch checks that I didn't.

Anyway, bad times. So I wasn't doing well, my personality wasn't doing well, Betty wasn't doing well, so I started in my own inimitable fashion reading hypnotic books, hypnosis and stuff like that. I started reading some psychology books. Oh, I remember one of the important things! Here's what you're looking for.

Judy hyperventilated - we'd be riding to work, and I would get on her case for some damn thing that I shouldn't have, but I did, and she would start hyperventilating in the car. So I'd pull over to the side of the freeway, and she'd say, "I can't get my breath! I'm gonna die!" and all that stuff. She was really suffering. And I was astounded because she had nothing in her mouth. After the second or third time, I began to apply my concepts and one of the great breakthroughs that really caused me to stay with my research was that I cured her of her hyperventilation!

"And how did you do that?"

Traced it, found a time when she couldn't breath . . . chuckle!

"So that was 'back to the drawing board, which for her was back to her childhood.'"

Now, it was so clear to me that all of the symptoms of hyperventilation were re-created memories of a time in the child's life when they couldn't breathe. No exceptions.

"Okay, general case again. What I want to know is exactly what you told her to do. Where did you go? What did you do? Did it happen the first time you tried it? What was the setup? Did you do it in the car?"

No, at our house. She and Betty were real good friends. She came to the house. I put her on the couch, and I traced the feelings back. Started out with this remember your breath thing in the car. I used the nose pinch to block her breathing. And traced back . uh . .

"What did you do? You didn't say you were tracing or did you use those words?"

That was twenty something years ago.

"I know, but whatever you can remember."

Well, I remember what the event was. She was four and was having her tonsils and adenoids removed. And incidentally she could not wear a mask over her face, like a Halloween mask. She was so timid she could not go to work if I did not go that day. She was a scaredy cat. Never knew anybody so scared. You know who she is now? She's the Mayor of Hawthorne, California! Fighting with the Police Chief, and all that!

"This Judy? And Mayor of Hawthorne?"

Absolutely, and very religious, trying to help me to find God. Good Catholic.

"Did you do a systematic time mark countdown that first time? Or you just asked her to remember some times . . . "

Oh, no, I started her at her age, I think I might have even used hypnosis with her. If you ever read all the software documentation of Panacea! you'd see that the relaxation process is a hypnotic induction without the words. You will stay awake. Everything in there is hypnosis, but we don't say that. You're gonna stay awake, there will be no post-hypnotic suggestion, and you'll feel fine wake up, uh, finish the session. I'd say wake up, 1, 2, 3, etc, read it, you'll see, it's all in the book. Warren Liberty says the relaxation process got rid of his migraines, and got rid of his insomnia.

"Go back to Judy."

Okay. So I traced it back. I can't recall all I did, but I did the thing.

"So you did a standard age regression with her?"

Yes, I told her to relax, standard software procedure. [Note: Doyle is referring to the procedure the Panacea! software takes a user through.] But we didn't have the software yet. Same as in Chapter 6 in the book, the 1990 book. [Amazing New Truths about Human Emotions]

"Where did you get the idea to do that? Where did it come from?"

This came from the realization that regressing hypnotic therapy did not get you back and able to retrieve information. Psychoanalysis, with free association, you never get back to anything that isn't conceptual. And I realized that memories needed to be created in the body as states. Where did they come from? Yesterday? A month ago? No. I've cried since I could remember. And I began realizing that I had this fear since I could remember.

"So you had to go back to before you remembered."

So I realized that the homosexual says, 'I always felt this way.' And I began to realize that all of this stuff came from under age five, where the conceptual memory doesn't work yet. And I realized that if you can remember the event, when you were first in water when you were six years old, your brother held you under the water, that ain't it. All of this thinking, see, brought us to the point where we have to get back. Well, you just can't say, 'Okay, think of yourself two years old.' Of course they can't bring up the feeling. So I experimentally, with Clovis's help. George Shelton would sit on the couch as adversary or protagonist, and George was wonderful at shooting down all my ideas. He'd say, "Uh-uh!" And I'd bounce back and forth. He was terrific! All the time as an antagonist he is helping me, you see, to refine the concepts. He got killed in a damn car wreck. He was going to get his Ph. D. He went to Pepperdine to get his Ph. D.

So I realized that you can go from your current crying and grief back, and you don't know the grief of two years ago, you don't know it. Can't bring it up. Place your mind two years before, using regressive psychology, and you can't, you don't know that. You have to be combining it with anger, hate, sadness, guilt, shame, and all these different body states. You gotta relive the event in order to have one you can hold onto. Now Matherne comes along, and says, "Hey! You'll gotta 'em all up - you don't have to relive them - you already gotta 'em! So just hold onto 'em!" Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant application! Absolutely brilliant. And they fall away. You de-combine them - the brain knows what you want to do, and it de-combines them.

"Back to the story of Judy."

So I de-combined it. She's got this can't breathe thing. Very hard to manifest it because you don't want, it's a fear. I can't remember all the details, but we get to four, three and a half, four years old, and she had her tonsils out.

"She remembers that?"

No, no, she did not remember it. It's totally gone.

"What does she do then, if she doesn't remember it? What does she tell you?"

She brings up the body states. She knows it at four and a half and doesn't know it at four. I count back for her. Tell if anything happens, now, just think of the body feelings. Now just take this feeling that you can't breathe, and tell me if you notice any changes. And I notice, "Hey! She stopped breathing!" <chuckle> And she's got it. She doesn't know what happened at all.

"But you found out later because you checked . . ."

Checked with her mother. Her mother said, "I'm gonna sue that man because he left the gauze in her throat." And she's cured! Never hyperventilated since. And she couldn't eat in a group. She could never go to lunch on Friday with four people. And when she did, she would order a salad and not eat it, and everybody noticed that, or some of us noticed that. And I asked her, and she said, "I can't eat anything." She could not go to a Thanksgiving dinner. She'd be in the kitchen fixing things and some of us would notice, "You never sat down and ate anything." Who gives a rat's ass? But I noticed and she said, "I can't."

"And after the trace?"

She was alright.

"She could start eating with other people?"

Sure. I used to trace with Judy as we were going to and from work. She'd be sitting on the seat there in the car, and I'm driving on the freeway. And we're tracing stuff. She had a lot of that. She not only got free of her hyperventilation, but she was able to do the 10K run and come in 11th! Go out and do campaigning for City Council and Mayor. Fight with the police department - she had threats against her life. She's a whole new person. She's a classic! And she's also a classic because I'm still in touch with her. And she's a classic because it shows it's permanent, irreversible. And without having to refresh it. Still, at the time I said, "You gotta come back once a year and refresh it. You gotta take tapes, audio tapes, and play them every so often." Now, nobody does that anymore.

"What's her full name? Jennifer?"

"Virginia. Virginia McInnis. Her name now is Lambert. She married an older man, older than I am. He tried to run for City Council, she helped him, and he lost. She said, "Well, you did this and you did that." He said, "Well, you're so smart, you do it." Acted as though she was this little dummy, scared little kid, you know. So she did, and she won.

I saw her a couple of months ago. I had lunch with her. I email her every so often. She introduced me to another woman that was a terrific proof of my doyle concepts about sex. She was in her mid-sixties. She went out into the desert and took photographs in this tour group of the desert turtles mating. Mating out there halfway to Vegas. She admitted to me - I asked her - I took a chance and asked her some questions. She admitted to me that she orgasmed as she watched the turtles mate. That confirms my concepts about sexuality in women. Anyway, I don't know if you've read any of my stuff. So Ginny was, while not the first, I don't to imply otherwise, but there was a collaboration of concepts that made it worth continuing to pursue.

There was a lesbian nurse at the hospital, in 1970, Norwalk. I have that on tape. It's twenty-three minutes, where this lifetime nurse is converted from a lesbian to a bi-sexual. So many cases where we had wonderful successes.

"Now let me interrupt. You've now gone over the first case with Ginny, curing her hyperventilation. By the time you had done this first case, you had read Janov's book?"

Yes, I saw that he was totally wrong. He had made a horrible mistake, and it says on the website now [PANACEA! ] what was wrong with Janov's ideas.

"That's not what I'm interested in. Not what's wrong with Janov's ideas, but what about his work led you to go in certain directions, like age regression, etc."

Somebody told me about The Primal Scream so I was interested. I bought The Primal Scream which was a big hit at that time. I read it, and I said, "He's wrong." Clovis and I went up to a lecture in Beverly Hills. He was on the stage lecturing. We watched it all. In the lobby I approached him and tried to talk to him. He dismissed me. Who was the guy who developed stress?

"Hans Selye?"

I talked to him behind the stage after a lecture. Waited an hour to talk to him. I have been trying for years to approach professionals with no success.

"Okay. Now I want to explain to you why this is important. You know enough about Dr. Galambos's ideas, and you can read somebody's work, say that they're all wrong, and use their ideas and do things differently than you did before after reading the book. What I want to know is

were you doing age regressions before you read Janov's book?"

All the time. We did age regressions before we . . . we were using standard psychotherapy whatever it was I didn't know, I didn't even study it. Neither did Clovis. Clovis and I did what we thought was psychotherapy, hypnotherapy. There was this guy who bought Amazing New Truths and wrote me asking if there was any way he could do this alone. I wrote back, "No, you couldn't." But then I said to myself, "Unless I can replace myself on the computer." But you can't do that, you gotta close your eyes, lay down on the couch, and I worked for a year with two deaf men. I went every Saturday at my own expense from Fawnskin down to Riverside School of the Deaf. And I spent the whole day with them. Because they were deaf, they had to open their eyes and read my sign language. I even learned sign language. And I realized that it actually enhanced the tracing for them to open their eyes and look at their body states, notice that there's something wet, and all that stuff. And read my lips and follow my instructions. So I had learned from the deaf people that you can do this and open your eyes and not mess it up. So you could open your eyes and read the computer! Then close your eyes and continue. The computer would tell you what to do just as I was telling him what to do. Then I worked with Betty's mother and other elderly people, 85 years old. She had a bad back, so she had to sit in a chair. So I realized that you could sit in a chair, at a computer. So I said, "I think I can mechanize this two-man process, the Session Director and the Subject, the process set down in Chapter Six of Amazing New Truths About Your Emotions, my 1990 book. And that's what I set out to do.

So the computer program was nothing more than me mechanizing myself and you sitting up at a computer opening your eyes. See how it all came about? It's not as good as me doing it one-on-one, but the darn thing works. And now I want to make it better. You know the story - I met this guy Matherne, and he modifies the thing. And wow! So we're totally open. So it's been refining, back-to-the-drawing-board ideas all along the way. So I worked with deaf people and found you could open your eyes. You could sit up. Of course, I knew you could sit up because I worked with Ginny many years before. And we'd drive back and forth to work and I'd trace while she was in the car seat. Of course we did tracing during the lunch hour. So I knew pretty you could sit up. And all this stuff was getting it together: experience, experience.

Of course the software needs pictures of people doing things. It needs less text, it needs talking, it needs examples, boy, it needs examples. So I hired Tom (not his right name) to do that only Tom has done an entirely different thing. Anyway, it's best to turn off the tape.

[Bobby Note: Long break in the tape during which Doyle and I discussed the situation with this Tom. When we start the tape again, he's thanking me for listening. We had stopped in Fredericksburg, Texas at a German bakery for coffee and rolls.]

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